From the Clavinova Brochure "Natural voices use a huge amount of memory to assure incredibly faithful reproduction of instrument sounds."

So are the Clavinova "natural" voices the same as the Tyros "Mega" voices? BTW, the CVP-209 has 37, the CVP-207 has 22, the CVP-205 and CVP-203 have 21, and the CVP-201 has none. I thought the Tyros had 10. Anyway, if they are the same thing, then there is a way for people to audition the sounds without a Tyros around.

Cliff ,
Yamaha does say that the TYRO's is in part like the CVP209 . I say this for people trying to listen for the new technology via the Clavinova . Find a CVP209 basically .

Also ....Many of the TYRO's styles are from past PSR keyboards . They have added grooves + dynamics to the TYRO's styles .
I did find some very nice improved styles on the Tyro's . Funk , HipHop , Gospel to name a few .

dano

PS..better UD ?

[This message has been edited by DanO1 (edited 09-07-2002).]

DanO ... what will you ever do if Ketron goes out of business? You have a one-sided view of how the world compares to Ketron products, and that's not very objective in the retail world.

You're a great guy and have been very good to me, but that's because I always know what I want before we do business.
I hate to sound like I'm picking on you, but as a retailer, don't you think you should offer good, objective advice in ALL areas so your customers can make their own minds up? There are LOTS of really great products out there and each has strengths that the others do not. You are painting yourself into a corner by singing the "SD1" anthem all the time, because if it slips in popularity, you won't be able to sell anything else!
Please take all this with a light heart ... I'm you pal. I just think you need to represent all things as they are, and not how the rate next to the almighty SD1.
I thought the SD1 had far too many drawbacks for me to keep it, as well as the XD9. Does that mean that I have no other choices?
Potential buyers need to have clear advice about all the options, and should not be made to feel that ONLY this one product is acceptable, and everything else is a compromise.

I love yaman, I do - but you gotta diversify a little. No one will trust your opinions if all you do is pushthe Ketron line. You work for Piano Man, NOT Ketron. Ketron is actually a client of YOUR'S. Don't be a one trick pony .... there's lots af great choices for everyone to pick from. Let's all try to help make the choices easier by informed, unbiased advice.

Remember folks ... I bought Three kb's from this man (five really - one return and one exchange) - I'm NOT unhappy at all. Just offering some friendly advice to a great guy.

I have the new Yamaha PF1000 in my store and I've investigated Yamaha's "natural" voices with people at Yamaha. "Natural"voices is it's own chip inside the clavinova or PF1000. Polyphony is it's own 64 voices and the sample process is a combination of three different types: Stereo sampling, sustain sampling, and note off sampling. Yamaha has "natural" sounds in the catagories of Piano and Keyboard but not in Guitars, Brass, etc. In the Clavinova products, 32 voices or 64 voice polyphony is for the styles and 64 polypony is for the Panel and Natural sounds. In the PSR9000, 9000pro, TYROS, the polyphony is totally dynamicaly allocated so you can use all sounds for all the keyboard parts. I just went over this with a friend at Yamaha the other day. I hope I am explaining this ok.
George Kaye
Kaye's Music Scene
Reseda, California

natural voices are not the same as mega voices. The 10 mega voices have multiple samples that are used to best effect when pre-programmed in the preset backings. You cannot play the mega voices live in exactly the same way, according to the information from the Yamaha designers, though they may well be better to play anyway.

UD ...I edited my original post .

I did have a chance to play the TYRO's . So ...it's not like I am talking without even playing it . I certainly do appreciate your point of view .

Piano Man is a General Music , Kawai, Technics , some Roland and Motion Sound dealer .

dano





[This message has been edited by DanO1 (edited 09-07-2002).]

Ok, then,

Does the Tyros have "Natural!" voices?

not according to the spec: - mega, cool, sweet, live, if these actually mean much - I just listen and see what I like

DanO - I know you're just super excited about a product that really lit your fire. I'm glad you're not put off by my comments. I did not mean to offend you in any way. Just passin' some thoughts along.

Keep on sellin' !

I'm sure it must have "natural" voices too. I think the mega, sweet and live were just added features in the specs.
Terry

All I can say is that there has been no mention of natural voices in any printed leaflet, specification or material or in any of the dealer or show previews of the tyros by any Yamaha personel.

Tech,
This I got from their spec sheet.
Voices Preset Voices 403 Voices
(393 Normal + 10 Mega)
+ 10 Organ Flute + 480 XG Voices + 256 GM2 Voices + 31 Drum Kits + 5 SFX Kits

So, I'm not sure which spec sheet you've seen.
Terry

the official Yamaha spec leaflet. I have been to all the dealer and show presentations of tyros, and been through the menus. Nowhere does it say, or have Yamaha said anything about natural voices on tyros. They talked only of mega, sweet, live and cool voices.

Tech,
This came from the Yamaha PK site. Under products> PSR> Tyros>specs
http://www.yamahapkclub.com/english/top_e.htm
Terry

[This message has been edited by trtjazz (edited 09-08-2002).]

[This message has been edited by trtjazz (edited 09-08-2002).]

same info as the product spec, except there they list separately the 10 mega, 14 sweet, 5 cool, 8 live voices too. Nowhere any mention of natural voices...

Well then what are 393 normal voices? And the xg and midi? They certainly didn't have that many sweet and live voices.

This is from the 9000... and we know they have "natural voices.
Voice 848 Presets (342 Voices + 480 XG Voices + 24 Drum Kits + 2 SFX Kits)
32 programmable Custom Voices, 10 Preset + 10 User Organ Flutes

Terry



[This message has been edited by trtjazz (edited 09-09-2002).]

The answer to your question is the 393 normal voices are normal voices. I can remember no mention of natural voices in the 9000 spec so wonder on what basis you believe this to be the case?

Tech,
Than enlighten me please as to the difference between normal and natural voices?

Would this mean they are normal or natural sounds?
1,065 preset sounds, 36 drum kits, 2 digital drawbars, 40 sound memories, 1 user drum kit
Terry

[This message has been edited by trtjazz (edited 09-09-2002).]

I have no idea what the definition of the difference between normal and natural sound is. Yamaha imply natural means extra long samples, or maybe more samples per voice. This does not strike me as a description of the 9000 normal voices, compared to cool sweet etc. I am just telling you the facts that Yamaha claim natural voice for the high end Clavinovas, but nowhere do they claim natural voice for 9000 or tyros.

I saw the tyros preview in Frankfurt, the official new products launch and the first official tyros launch in the UK and have talked with various Yamaha people including one of the designers of the tyros about the voices. The thrust of the launch was mega voices, no mention of natural voices.

Since the 9000 has 32 MB of wave rom it is extremely unlikely that it could accomodate the natural voice samples of the high end Clavinovas in addition to sweet, cool etc. As I understand it the majority of the increased wave rom in tyros compared to 9000pro is dedicated to the mega voices which take a lot of space. The other voices may also benefit from some increased wave rom, but if this is to the level of their definition of natural voices, why not publicise the fact? They have not.

Technicsplayer,

I was wondering, since you might be one of only a handful who have heard both the Tyros and the KN7000, which one do you think has the better sounding drums in their styles?
Which one has the more realistic sounding instruments? And last, but not least, which one would you buy?
I know it's a very subjective decision, but I tend to agree with your comments.

my comment would be don't believe too many other peoples subjective opinions you read on forums and go and play, listen and decide for yourself

I'm lucky to have had a 7000 at home to compare with 6500, but so far only ran my fingers over a tyros in a hotel lobby with people hubbub around. It will be around another week before we get a tyros, and probably October before I can take one home to compare with pro, so reserve judgement until had chance for a fair comparison.

technics,
So what do you interpret these as being?

Would this mean they are normal or natural sounds?
1,065 preset sounds, 36 drum kits, 2 digital drawbars, 40 sound memories, 1 user drum kit
Terry

Technicsplayer,

Thanks for the reply, I agree that it's tough to compare to completely different brands like Yamaha and Technics.
I currently have the KN6500, can you tell me if there have been any "noticable" improvements in the samples and styles for the KN7000, particularly the drums?
At the end of the day, it's the sound quality that counts. The storage technology upgrades are great, but that's not why I would by a Keyboard.
Also, can you tell me if the improvements in sound quality is due to the new speakers or the internal sounds? the reason I ask, is because I typically have to use my own speakers so I wouldn't benefit from the better internal speakers.
I would love to check it out myself, but the closest dealer is 2 hours away and I'd have to take a day off from work to go and see it, assuming he has one on display, which might not happen for a couple of weeks. So, I'd like to know if it's worth the trip.

Thanks.

they are normal voices apart from those specified as cool, sweet or live, see http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/Forum37/HTML/004393.html for confirmation.

7000 has 9 live drum kits where the sympathetic resonance of the entire kit is recorded, including a couple of nice brush kits. All sounds are better through the internal speakers since these are improved, whether they are better though external speakers will depend on the external speakers I suppose. You may need pretty good PA speakers to hear the subtleties.

Technic,
I read that and I guess I don't understand the terminology here.

I interpret normal or natural to mean....a voice that does not fall under the sweet or mega or live in this case ie., this is our harmonica sound that isn't sweet, live or mega. If that is the case.....then there would have to be normal or natural or standard sounds on the Tyros....because they are different from previous PSR's, I do not think that makes them mega, live or sweet.There is apparently a limited number of those types of voices on the Tyros.
So if all of the above is true.....then what are we to call the voices that do not fall into the sweet, mega or live catagories?
I don't think George's post (through Mark)helped to clear that up at all....the harmonica he mentioned has to fall into being called something, which I would assume is a "normal" Tyros sound.
Terry

Technicsplayer,

Just on more question on this topic, if you don't mind.

Have they changed a lot of the styles for the KN7000 vs. the KN6500, or have they added new ones, or both?

trtjazz, normal is normal and natural is natural, these are two different terms used by Yamaha to signify two different things on different sets of products. George's post specifically states that "Natural voices are not used in TYROS", exactly what I've been saying all along. If this is not clear by this stage, I guess it never will be.


Steve, if you are familiar with the styles change from 5000 to 6000, and particularly the new styles on 6500, then 6500 to 7000 is a similar sort of jump. I would guess somewhere in the region of 40% of 6500 or 50% of 6000 are new or reworked with new voices or detail patterns with more independant major and minor intros and endings etc. I would certainly try to audition if considering spending this sort of money

Technics,
Thanks that wasn't any help at all. but I suppose it seems you're coming from a technics is great and everything else sucks point of view.
I was asking for help in understanding what it is that is meant by the terms as applied here.
Apparantly my explanation of what a normal or natural voice is as I understand it to be, either is incorrect, or you're not quite sure what the term means either, as applied here.

I looked on Yammy's site at the 9000,2000 &1000 and I did not see where they used those terms to explain their voice, either in the paragraphs about sounds or the specs.

The helpful answer is.....normal is a voice that......has this, or doesn't have this.
Terry

[This message has been edited by trtjazz (edited 09-10-2002).]

Thanks technicsplayer.

I may go and check it out tomorrow. The financial markets open late and close early tomorrow.

The helpful answer has already been given by me way up the thread. Quote " Yamaha imply natural means extra long samples, or maybe more samples per voice." If natural have extra long samples, then it follows that normal must have normal samples i.e. less memory allocated. Particularly if natural are specifically promoted for high end Clavinova in the numbers quoted in the first post, and the non-cool, non-sweet, non-live, non-mega voices on 9000 and tyros are not promoted as natural but specifically called normal instead by Yamaha themselves.

As to bias on my part, none of my statements show any factual errors, where is the bias? In contrast you persist in assuming natural is the same as normal when Yamaha say there are specific numbers of natural voices on high end Clavinova but no natural voices on 9000 or tyros. Then you tell us that George's post "does not help to clear that up" when George specifically states "Natural voices are not used in TYROS"...

technic,
Sorry I missed your description in the earier thread and I now understand what you are saying,thank you.
As far as my perception of your bias it is that you seem to be seizing every opportunity to point out what you deem as inadequacies in the Tyros.
Personally, I don't care, I didn't build it or design it. I'd like to think though as we share info here, that we do so sans personal preferences, so that we can all gain and make good buying decisions.
thanks for the expanation,
Terry

You are very welcome, Terry, but not inadequacies, facts.
I have no evidence but from how the designer was talking I would guess there is the possibility the mega voices may use even more wave rom than the natural voices.
The 10 mega voices are only guitar and acoustic bass at the moment. This is because the many permutations of slide, pick, twang, hit, open string etc can only be used in the backing styles by having pre-programmed commands for each sample at the specific points as the style plays, this you can program easily in a preset style.
But it is unlikely you can play the mega voices live and achieve the same effect. But as I said earlier playing the mega voices live may still be better than before anyway, I just don't see how you can provide the preset style level of control information just by velocity switching, for example, and Yamaha agreed with this.

As I said earlier, I don't care what they call the voices, I just listen and see what I like

tech,
I agree too, in that I don't care what they call them or who's name is on them, I'm only concerned with how it sounds and how the board is to work with, no matter who makes it.
One thing I know for sure is none of these companies make the ultimate board and by the time we get our hands on the new model....the newer model is already on the drawing board.
thanks,
Terry

Tyros has many new Sweet!, Live! and Cool! voices including most from the 9000 and 9000 pro. The Mega voices, 10 of them have been designed especially for creating rhythm sections, hence comprise guitar and bass sounds. Yamaha have incorporated several voices into one by the use of velocity switching and mapping of zones across the octaves. So for example an acoustic guitar mega voice in the 1st two octaves features no less than 8 different velocity switched sounds, ranging from open and closed strums to hammered strings, slides and tapping effects. In the following octaves there are pitched harmonic effects, slide sounds and other twiddly bits to essentially offer the ingredients for creating that authentic rhythm guitar sound. I've listed some of the new voices on the Tyros in the update to my Tyros page review at svpworld.com if anyone is interested.

Regards
Simon


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Simon G.K. Williams
simon@svpworld.com
Creative Music & Multimedia
http://www.svpworld.com
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